Women Thriving in Business

Episode 209: The Power of the Mind | Randall Hayes

May 26, 2021 Nikki Rogers Season 2 Episode 9
Women Thriving in Business
Episode 209: The Power of the Mind | Randall Hayes
Show Notes Transcript

Most successful entrepreneurs know that intelligence and talent are just the starting points for success. We can always improve and our basic abilities can be developed with intention and dedication. Therefore, creating a mindset that supports productive daily habits is one of the best ways to grow personally and professionally.

Emotions like fear and anxiety drive behavior, but what if there was a way to better manage or speak to these emotions? What if there were methods to harness the power of positive thinking and stop catastrophizing business situations? This could be as simple as relaxing and visualizing a beautiful beach to manage stress or imagining only two people in the audience as you give an important speech to calm your nerves. 

The mind is a powerful tool, and we can leverage the mind-body connection to help prevent procrastination and unproductive behaviors to move us closer to our desired goals.

In today’s episode, I talked with Randall Hayes, a neuroscientist, university instructor, and hypnotist.  He has embraced multiple disciplines and uses his knowledge to help his clients. Randall started as a researcher studying neuroplasticity, which involved investigating the brain’s ability to reorganize and “heal” in response to an injury. He then became interested in the intersection between meditation and hypnosis, which led him to pursue becoming a hypnotist to help people relax and focus their minds.

Randall shares with us the foundations of hypnosis and how it is an excellent tool to deal with fears, phobias, and anxiety and helps release us from our unconscious or deep-seated inhibitions. In addition, we discussed how getting into the flow state, or becoming hyper-focused, helps in harnessing the power of habit.  

Thriving Points:

  • One of the keys to helping people make behavioral changes is recognizing that something is wrong.
  • All hypnosis is self-hypnosis.
  • So many of our procrastination behaviors are the avoidance of momentary anxiety.
  • The idea is to give yourself a little bit of anxiety and learn how to deal with that, and then become more ambitious (in dealing with your fear). 
  • Guided imagery is a prime technique of hypnosis.
  • Emotion is what drives behavior. A lot of our thinking is just rationalizing decisions that we've already made emotionally.
  • Getting enough sleep is a big thing because all these other techniques are going to work better when you're well-rested.

Get to Know the Guest:

Randall Hayes is your friendly neighborhood neuroscientist, writer, and successful entrepreneur. He is the owner of Agnosia Media, a consulting firm for educational projects for schools, businesses, nonprofits, and governments. Randall’s previous stints also include being a farmer, neuroscience researcher, college professor, and hypnotist.

Connect with Randall:

A Team Dklutr Production

Nikki Rogers: Your business is an asset that can support a thriving life. I believe this, and I'm committed to making this a reality for every entrepreneur and business owner who listens to this podcast. The Women Thriving in Business Podcast was created with you in mind, whether you were thinking about entrepreneurship or you're a business veteran, this podcast has inspiration, information, and advice you can use to thrive in business.

Women Thriving in Business features candid, unscripted conversations with entrepreneurs, business experts, authors, and academics who will contribute to your business success. I seek out and talk with business leaders who have built, grown, and thrive in business. My name is Nikki Rogers, transformation coach, author, and the host of Women Thriving in Business Podcast. I work with women entrepreneurs to develop the mindset, strategies, and connections necessary to thrive in business. Join me and your fellow Thrivers each week on this journey of discovery and success.

Nikki Rogers: Welcome Thrivers to this week's episode of Women Thriving in Business Podcast. 

Today's episode is a bit of a departure from my normal discussions with women entrepreneurs. We're actually welcoming our first male guest to the podcast, and he is here to talk to us about neuroplasticity and how we can leverage hypnosis to support the power of habit.   

Today's guest is Randall Hayes, who is a neuroscientist and a hypnotist. He has embraced multiple disciplines throughout his career in order to support his client and his students. Throughout his multifaceted career, Randall has been a farmer, a neuroscience researcher, a college professor, and a hypnotist, and is now a writer and entrepreneur where he leads Agnosia Media which is located in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Randall shares how hypnosis is an excellent tool for dealing with fears, phobias, and anxiety, and can help us get over our fear of public speaking if that's your issue. It also may be a tool to help entrepreneurs more willingly engage in business financial management. 

Listen in to learn more about hypnosis, the flow state, and how these things can help you move toward your goals Let's go.

Hello, Thrivers. This week's guest is Randall Hayes, who is a neuroscientist and hypnotist, so we are delighted to have Randall here with us today. Welcome, Randall to the podcast. 

Randall Hayes: Thanks for having me.

Nikki Rogers: Great. You are a bit of a different guest for me, so heretofore, I've always just had women entrepreneurs.  You are my first male guest, so congratulations.   

Randall Hayes: I'm glad I dressed up.   

Nikki Rogers: To those of you who are listening, Randall is dressed up because he and I both have on North Carolina "A&Ts" State University sweatshirts. We are in sync around the greatest university. But to get us started Randall, I'd love to hear about how your backgrounds, your two disciplines that you have studied, and practice of neuroscience and hypnosis? How those things come together to help you, help clients be successful?

Randall Hayes:  I started out as a researcher, and I was actually working as a graduate student. I worked in a monkey lab, but I did the research not on monkeys but on human stroke patients. When I was there, I was studying how the visual system worked. We weren't doing rehabilitation really with these patients or anything like that, we were just trying to figure out what their deficits were. Even preliminary to doing any kind of rehabilitation,  there were people working on technical things that you might be able to do.  I got interested in some of those issues, and issues of neuroplasticity partly because after I stopped doing research, I started teaching.

And so I started working with students, and when you're dealing with students, they want to see results right away. We would start doing things,  I'm like, "How do I demonstrate neuroplasticity?"  We had these prisms that you would put on a pair of goggles that had prisms in them. It would shift your visual field 10 degrees to the right,  and that would rewire your brain within about 10 minutes so that it'll look normal again. 

You could throw a tennis ball normally, whereas when you first put them on, you're automatically throwing to the left of where you think you are because your visual shield field has been shifted. But your brain will recover from that perturbation in about 10 minutes.  If you flip the visual field upside down, that takes about 24 hours, so we didn't use that in class. 

It was a question of just finding ways to make it real for students. That's one of the keys to helping people make behavioral changes is, recognizing that something is wrong.  Two, being able to see results quickly,  and so that was how I got interested in neuroplasticity at the behavioral level. After I left teaching, I started just as a hobby, really messing around with some other technologies that were not so many physical technologies, but behavioral technologies. I've been a meditator for a long time. I started meditating probably 20, 30 years ago in graduate school.

There turns out to be a lot of overlap between meditation and hypnosis. I got involved in reading about it from the research side because people have been using hypnosis for pain since the 1960s.  There are dentists and childbirth obstetricians who use hypnosis for pain relief during otherwise very painful procedures.

Having a tooth extracted or giving birth, and so I had read a lot of the research literature around hypnosis, and I just never had the opportunity to try it myself. I met a woman up in Asheville who teaches classes and I spent a couple of weekends there learning how to do it. It turned out to be much easier than I thought it was, and she had a business model of actually making CDs and mailing them to people because she lived in a place that didn't have super great internet. So I  got interested in it from a practical point of view, and have been working with it whenever I can since. 

Nikki Rogers: Great. You just reminded me when I was pregnant, I actually took this course called hypnobirthing.  The way it's marketed is about removing the fear around childbirth, and so you watch videos and then there are these CDs, and I always thought of them as meditations but you're right. They were really a bit of hypnotic transits. I used them, and I used one as I was on the way to the hospital. Like my child was almost born in the car because we were that close and I  literally turned on,  and I listened to that track on the way to the hospital just to calm me down.  Now that you said that, I was like, "Oh, that was kind of a bit of hypnosis there." 

Randall Hayes: Yes. In fact, all hypnosis really is self-hypnosis. 

Nikki Rogers: Okay. 

Randall Hayes: That's why you can use a recording, or you can just use a script that you say to yourself internally. That's a little more difficult for a lot of people because as you start to drop into a trance, you stop, you lose the ability to recite things. People find it easier to use an externally recorded voice, but that's all a hypnotist really is. It's a catalyst that stabilizes a natural state. Hypnosis is a mixture of waking and sleeping.

You normally switch back and forth between waking, sleeping, dreaming, pretty seamlessly just like you would get the gears of your car.  When you're shifting gears going from first to second to third, if you're good at it, or you have a good automatic transmission that happens seamlessly.

So the weird things that happen around those transitions are like the gears of your car grinding. And so hypnosis is sort of an in-between state that combines aspects of first gear, second gear, third gear in an unusual way that would normally be unstable. What normally happens is people drop into a trance for just a few seconds and then they either pop back to waking, or they pop over to sleeping.

It's hard. It's difficult to maintain yourself in that transitional state if you don't have any practice at doing it, so hypnosis is a skill.

One of the things that come from working with the hypnotist usually is that the hypnotist is teaching the person how to maintain a self-hypnotic state and how to use it in a productive way. I mean, otherwise, it's just sort of like super daydreaming.

Nikki Rogers: Right. You talk about this idea of neuroplasticity, and the fact that your brain can adapt and adjust relatively quickly.  One is recognizing that something has changed, something is wrong, and now it's a bit of acceptance that you now have to reorient your senses and that your brain can do that pretty quickly, just as a part of his natural ability.   

Randall Hayes: Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. Some things are harder to change than others. 

Nikki Rogers: Okay.

Randall Hayes: And some things don't change very much at all. That's why, when they say if you get neurological damage in a car accident or something like that, the brain is not great at completely rewiring from major damage. But we're talking about our very subtle kinds of behavioral changes for the most part. 

Nikki Rogers: For instance, if we think about someone normal, like no physical damage.  I imagine being put in a different situation, being kind of disoriented like they're in a new situation, they're trying new things. They are faced with a challenge. What makes the difference between those who are able to shift their minds or remodel their thoughts? What makes the difference between those who do that relatively easily and those who do not? 

Randall Hayes: Anxiety is a pretty good example. If you're in a new way, if you're in a new situation, it's unfamiliar, it's quite natural for some level of fear to pop up. One of the things that hypnosis is good at is dealing with fears, phobias, anxiety, and one of the techniques is for people to be able to just step back to recognize that this emotion is a physical sensation in their body. So, yes, my heart is beating faster. Yes, my breathing has become a little bit more shallow and faster. Things like that, where you begin to recognize the feedback from your body and your mind which in the West, in the sort of classical, philosophical, Christian tradition, Descartes, and all those people, we try to say that the mind and the body are separate. 

But they're not, they're connected. Your brain is inside your head and connected with blood vessels and nerves to everything else.  Part of the way that anxiety gets out of control is that you start paying attention to the fact that your heart is beating faster and your breathing is faster, and your muscles are tensing up, and then you do it, and then you reinforce that. You do it again and you do it again, and pretty soon you're in a panic state. 

Whereas if you're working on either some self-meditation, self-hypnosis, or if you're working with a hypnotist, then that person is using their voice to redirect your attention. So rather than focusing on my heart rate, I want to focus on slow, deep belly breath. This sounds like yoga in a sense. It sounds a little bit like a yoga practice and it kind of is. All of these things are a little bit related to each other. It's just that different people who develop the different techniques called them different things.  Hypnosis is a Greek word and yoga is from India, but a lot of the underlying physical mechanisms are similar.

Nikki Rogers: I think that's great, and thinking about how those reactions, the emotions lead to the physical sensations, and those are the things that also can keep you stuck and not moving forward,  and how you want to behave, how you want to achieve your goals sometimes.

Randall Hayes: Right. So many of our procrastination behaviors and all of those anti-productive behaviors, a lot of those are the avoidance of momentary anxiety. If you're anxious that some writing project, for instance, is not going to go well, or that you're going to open this up and have a moment of anxiety staring at a blank page, well then people avoid that.  One of the things that a hypnotist would do in that case is to have you imagine the situation that is bothering you and to get closer and closer to that situation, approximating it and desensitizing yourself to it. 

Starting with mental imagery, and then moving closer and closer to the actual situation where otherwise you might have a little too much anxiety.  The idea is to give yourself, is to deliberately give yourself a little bit of anxiety, and learn how to deal with that, and then become more and more ambitious.

Nikki Rogers: As I think about entrepreneurship, there are all the things that we can be doing and there are all the things that maybe we want to do. We have, as entrepreneurs, especially me, you have grand goals and dreams but you're always catastrophizing. You always think of the worst thing that can happen.  Is that something that hypnosis can help you in thinking more about all the positive things that could happen as a result of your efforts? 

Randall Hayes: In fact, that guided imagery is a prime technique of hypnosis. Unless you're deliberately trying to desensitize yourself from something that's making you anxious, one of the other main techniques is to redirect your attention away from that thing, and instead to visualize a happy place, and to visualize the positive emotions and the positive physical sensations that go with those emotions. So you've got really good instincts about how this works already. So, yes, that is one of the main things that people use hypnosis for. 

Nikki Rogers: Great. I know one of the things that you talk about in your work is the power of habit.  Can you walk us through connecting, neuroscience, hypnosis, and then to the power of habit, again, to help people whether it be entrepreneurs, students just focus on life, achieve their goals through establishing good habits?

Randall Hayes: Our goals are usually cognitive. Bearing words, they might be images. Cognition is fairly shallow. It's up on the surface of the brain. Your emotions are at a deeper level and the real housekeeping functions of running your body are at a deeper level still,  and emotion is what really drives behavior. A lot of our thinking is really just rationalizing decisions that we've already made emotionally.  Once in a while, you can steer emotion but really emotion is in charge.

What you need to do is to find a way to speak to your emotions, which are mostly unconscious unless you have developed a lot of awareness, a lot of mindfulness around your emotions, then a lot of the time your decisions are already made before you really know about them.  Hypnosis is a procedure for using these trance states to bypass the cognitive judgmental level of awareness and to speak more directly to those emotions.

For instance, somebody who wants to stop smoking. That is one of the procedures that you would use to do that is actually to write a script that while you're in that trance state and you're imagining a cigarette would be to change the flavor of that cigarette to something nasty or to imagine smashing together, like taking that cigarette dipping it in something disgusting. Because in this particular case, it's a negative emotion, it's a negative response. But that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to stop doing something, and so that's a pretty classic method of trying to get past the fairly shallow cognitive kinds of things like, "Well, this is really expensive. This is not healthy for me." Let's really talk about something that's going to change your behavior. Let's talk about “this is just gross.”

The same kind of thing can work for the positive. it depends on the particular goal that you're trying to meet and the particular issues that you're having around that goal. 

Nikki Rogers: For instance, let's say you take someone who wants to be a public speaker, but they actually are afraid of public speaking. What would be something that they could replace that deadly fear of walking on stage? What are some of the things that they could use to replace that so that they could actually accomplish their goal?

Randall Hayes:  Nothing completely replaces actual practice. So something like a Toastmasters class is really an ideal thing to get practice at public speaking in a low-stress way. That comes a little later though,  what you would be using hypnosis for is in even the earlier stages of that, "Oh no, I'm too panicked to even talk about a Toastmasters class."

So there, you would begin to do some, maybe guided imagery kinds of exercises where you're imagining yourself talk.  It's a little bit related to that old trope of just imagine that your audience is naked, that it's the same kind of technique in a way. You're using guided imagery, in that case, you're trying to do it in a funny way. You're trying to make yourself laugh a little bit. With laughter is a relaxing parasympathetic nervous system calming kind of activity. Laughter's really good.  If you're doing a guided imagery kind of exercise, you could also rather than try and go for laughter because that's only going to work one time.

It's only funny the first time, but you could instead just work towards being aware of that anxiety and imagining yourself being farther away from that anxiety.  I'm only going to imagine two people here today, or I'm going to imagine just one person and that person is a lot smaller than I am, and they can't really hurt me.

The thing about this kind of guided imagery, that sounds goofy a little bit because we're not currently in that state. When you're dreaming, you basically just believe everything that happens regardless of how stupid it is. Hypnosis can have a little bit of that flavor to it especially at some of the deeper levels of trance. You can actually get people to see things that are not there.

Your dreaming brain hallucinates entire worlds. Your brain is definitely capable of doing that, it's just a question of accessing those functions.  Hypnosis is a sort of mixture of waking and sleeping elements that allow you to get to some really vivid imagery that you wouldn't normally associate with daydreaming unless you are an artist who just has really vivid visualization abilities consciously. But in one of those states, then these guided imageries can become much more powerful than we're used to thinking of them being.  

Nikki Rogers: Going back to this idea of habit, I think particularly for entrepreneurs, one of the things I hear that most people say is that they don't like to look at the numbers. They don't want to look at their financials.  What would you suggest as a practice, as establishing the habit, I don't know if anyone's ever going to enjoy looking at their numbers, but that's one of the things that I think is a habit that entrepreneurs definitely need to have,  what are some things that folks could do to establish that as a habit, like not turning away from the details that they need to be engaged with?

Randall Hayes: It can be a little tricky. This is something that it's true with students, it's true with grownups too. Humans are powerfully, powerfully social and so, I'm not saying you need to sit down and have a beer with your accountant exactly, but I remember, there were a lot of points in studying organic chemistry that was much more palatable with a person or two around who was also working on that same thing.  As long as you can stay focused and not drift off into other social things,  as long as it's a person that you have a good social rapport with around that topic, then that feedback, the loop, that conversational loop that you get into can push you really deep into detailed kinds of data that would be boring if you were by yourself.  

The guided imagery piece of that, it just imagines that you are having a conversation with another person. A person who is sort of infinitely patient, and probably smarter than I am. You may, as long as you were imagining and you're beginning to get into some of the flow state kinds of ideas.  A flow state is just another slightly odd mixture of what we normally think of as waking and sleeping. Where you're so hyper-focused on something that time stops.

Nikki Rogers: I love this. Again, now thinking back to all those study groups in college and in grad school, for that moment in time, we're inside that bubble and we're all talking about the same things.  To someone else, it would tell him like a foreign language but we're downloading what we heard, what we each heard and we're trying to help each other interpret and put those things together. I could see how that was definitely helpful and effective. I never really thought about that as part of this continuation of hypnosis and really rewiring your brain. That is fascinating. Now to think about it from that lens. 

Randall Hayes: Right.  It's easy to misapply it in the sense and turn it into just another networking session or something. But if you can actually get everybody focused, that's why I would say often it's better to do it with just one person than you can really drill down and start to understand things. If the other person knows more about the numbers than you do, then maybe that's also helpful. It's one of the things about teaching and learning is that you really want someone who is not necessarily such an expert that they're going to be bored by this.

You want someone who knows a little bit more than you do, so they'll still be interested in what problem that you're having, and they'll maybe learn something too. If you get very far apart in expertise, then it becomes more difficult to communicate and you lose some of that motivational drive like the real real expert is probably going to be a little bored.

 Nikki Rogers: And they got less likely to remember the learning steps because now this is just a part of who they are. 

Randall Hayes: Right. Someone who is a true expert has made a lot of the stuff that you're interested in so automatic that they don't even know that they're doing it anymore.  In a lot of cases, you really want someone who knows a little bit more than you do so that they remember what this struggle is like, and they remember how they solved it. 

Nikki Rogers: Right, right.

Randall Hayes: It's one of those interesting things about that sort of hypnosis. I angle that it is possible for there to be sort of interpersonal.  There are cases of groups entering states together, and sometimes those are more like religious situations. But people haven't studied this too much, but I think that something like a really intense study group, if you put electrodes on those people's heads, you would get some interesting results.

I haven't seen too much. There is a little bit of work about people being able to synchronize states of mind when they're meditating like monks, more or less professional level meditators. There's been some work in neuroscience on that, but not so much I think with just normal people or beginners. 

Nikki Rogers: That made me think about sports teams that there's the huddle and then right before you go out in the field, there's usually some words that are said that they're getting everyone in the same mind set. I wonder if they studied teams, would they see this  convergence of thought.

Randall Hayes:  Sports studies are very interested in flow states, and they've done a lot of work with individual athletes, and I don't know how much they've done with groups  and synchronization. There's probably some work about it that I'm not aware of because the sports teams have a lot of money and they're competing at a very high level so they've probably doing work on that. I know that there's been a lot of work done with individual athletes in reaching flow states.

Nikki Rogers: Can you talk to us a little bit about flow states, and how long can you stay in a flow state? How long do you want to stay in a flow state?  Is it a way of life or is it a way particularly for entrepreneurs that I get up in the morning and I want to enter this flow state so that I can get things done? Talk to us a little bit more about the flow state.  

Randall Hayes: Personally, I think I can remember being a teenager and being a painter. I can remember losing four hours, maybe as much as eight at one time.  They're not states that you can just live in. I mean, nor would you want to, because that kind of focus precludes being able to do other things. One of the classic examples that everybody knows is when you've been driving your car and you wake up, and you're at your destination and you don't know how you got there, but you did. You didn't have an accident. You weren't sleeping, but you were in a different state where you were not really registering and making memories of what you were doing. You were on autopilot. 

That's a state that's like a hypnotic state and has some aspects of a flow state. Just think about how you feel at the moment that you wake up from that, and it's a little creepy because there's a lot of information that you missed.

Nikki Rogers: Right.  

Randall Hayes: During that time, that could have been important. If it had been important, it probably would have snapped you out of it.  If something had run into the street, you probably would have snapped out of it, but it is a little weird sometimes when you realize that. One of the things about entering those states is that intense focus. It helps to be really interested in the thing that you're working on.

Caffeine is not good, especially lots of caffeine. A little bit of caffeine, it's a very small amount of caffeine depending on your tolerance could be a little bit helpful for entering those states. But you do not want to be jittery, it's hard to be jittery and enter a flow state. 

Nikki Rogers: Randall, again, thinking about entrepreneurs, I guess what would be two or three tips that you would offer to entrepreneurs to help them leverage the state of hypnosis, flow state, even thinking about neuroplasticity in the context of adapting to new environments, new challenges, new states of being in order to be successful in their business?

 Randall Hayes: One of the things that's just rampant in this country that is only congenitally related, but just the fact that people don't sleep enough.  That's just criminal. That's affecting your health in lots of other ways, and it's also affecting how well your brain works. Just getting enough sleep is a big thing because all these other techniques are going to work better when you're well-rested.

One of the main ways that people actually use hypnosis on themselves is to have a script or recording that they use as they are dropping off to sleep at night, and you want to be rested in that case, because you want to slow down that transition. You want to extend that transition between waking and sleeping, and if you're sleep-deprived, you're going to pop off probably as soon as your head hits the pillow.  A lot of us in American culture, don't like that transitional state where we want to be so tired that we don't have to learn how to turn our brains off. We want to be so tired that we just hit the pillow and fall asleep because there's a lot of anxiety around insomnia.

One of the things that would help with being able to use hypnosis during that transitional time, when you have some access to your brain to the emotions, and then dreaming is one of the things that helps you work through emotions. If you want to change a habit, sleep and dreaming will help you. But you need to set that program up by having something written out that you read to yourself. There are lots of these kinds of scripts available online. You can just search for hypnosis scripts for whatever problem that you're having, or you can find. Prerecorded things or you can just take your phone, read one of those scripts to yourself, having it in your own voice can be kind of powerful because you're listening to yourself. Affirm that you want this to happen.

Nikki Rogers: l love all of that, and you're speaking to me when you're saying get sleep. But I really think this idea of using that time between wake and sleep to really establish new habits, work through emotional challenges, anxieties, and really leveraging that as really valuable time for your brain.

Randall Hayes: Again, you don't want to try to think of it as another goal-oriented monk, because then you slide off into ruminating.  What you want is the ritual of "I'm doing this at this point in time. I've already brushed my teeth. I'm already in my pajamas. I'm calm. If I'm going to do a meditation before I go to sleep, maybe I've done enough meditation that I'm in a good calm state."

And then you get out your script or you get out your recording. One of the features that you want to look for in one of those things is that it's stated in positive terms, your unconscious doesn't deal well with double negatives.  I want this to happen, you state it indefinite terms. So not so much, I want this to happen as this will happen because your subconscious is very literal and you want to repeat it.

So just saying something one time, and it doesn't have to be the same words every time. You can say it in slightly different words. This is one of the things that religious traditions have leveraged for a long time. If you look at the Bible or you look at Hebrew poetry, they basically say the same thing over and over again with slightly different words. That's another lever that helps you to reach the unconscious.  The unconscious likes repetition. 

Nikki Rogers: I love that. So you're taking my affirmation game to a whole new level. I have cards posted everywhere but I think this idea of creating a script, positive, definite, and repetitive, I think that that's a real game-changer I believe around the affirmations.   So Randall, this has been a pleasure talking with you today.  How can folks find you if they want to reach out or learn more? 

Randall Hayes: I actually just started a newsletter. I haven't written anything about hypnosis yet, but I definitely will next week. Now that I've had this conversation with you and it's fresh in my head, that newsletter is just called randallhayes.substack.com,   and that's the easiest way to keep up with me right now. 

Nikki Rogers: Okay, great. We'll post this in the show notes, and folks, if you want to learn more about Randall, about the work he's doing, and about his newsletter where he's going to talk about hypnosis next week, please check him out on randallhayes.substack.com

Randall, it has been a pleasure, and thank you so much for coming to talk to us today. 

Randall Hayes: Thank you for getting in touch. I really appreciate it. 

Nikki Rogers: All right. Take care. 

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Women Thriving in Business Podcasts. If you like this episode, share it with a friend. You can also join us on social media to share your feedback and comments. We'd love to hear from you. Be sure to like, review and subscribe on iTunes so you never miss an episode. Until next week, keep thriving.